余錦賢's 的頭像

《信報》香港脈搏作者。

脆弱的中國

《信報》香港脈搏:......練乙錚傳來的電郵,是關於加拿大《卡加里先鋒報》(Calgary Herald)的社論,題目是「脆弱的中國」(Fragile China)。最近,卡加里大學因為頒贈名譽博士學位給西藏精神領袖達賴喇嘛,引來中國政府的報復,不再承認該大學。此舉意思甚明,就是要令到卡大從此無緣再收錄中國留學生,不可再收取花綠綠的外來生巨額學費。

根據卡大的網頁,該校是加拿大七大研究學院之一,大學課程當中亦有佛學課,介紹中、印、西藏以至日本的佛教。目前來自包括香港在內的中國學生大約有六百人。先鋒報指出,大學絕對有權向任何人頒發學位,中國的舉動不會破壞這一個傳統,「中國的惡霸作風在這民主社會嚇不了誰!」

雖然中國於加拿大而言,是愈來愈重要的貿易夥伴,但社論促請政府毋須向中國道歉,因為「向惡霸屈服,只會鼓勵惡霸繼續霸凌,因為霸行為有效!」

中國政府對於異見人士,從來都是以強者姿態壓倒之;在內地如此,對外呢?隨着中國富起來亦然。至於香港,更是不用說了,可是,對錯、公道自有公理。
(節錄)
全文

所有評論

Aliba - 2010年02月10日 04:52

這是名符其實的盛世黑、黑社會主義大國!

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 09:06

....The PM of Canada , Stephen Harper , has his base of power in Calgary. They are famous for their toughness (if you have chance to stay there during winter time and you will know).
I thought he took care of China in that he took in a lot of Chinese students with big chance of staying on as immigrants unlike that of the States. They are allowed to stay on for one yr provided they have job offer. After one yr of work they stand greater chance of getting official immigrant status. And Chinese is smart enough to get those job offers from other Chinese business immigrant who are required to hire people anyway. Both get the benefits.
Canada recently has even got the travel destination (from mainland) and that is great news for 貪官洗錢.
奶枪声 did not even have to be deported back to China from Canada. He has just got the work permit in Canada as well. So these are great news for all rank of 中共摩登皇朝貪官 & their princelings.

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 09:12

這種新開有甚麼好評論? 世界強國誰不如此? 美國不也是一直打壓伊朗和拉登嗎? 之前以莫需有罪名打伊拉克咪仲衰!
中國忍聲吞氣咁多年, 終於唔使再俾外國人欺凌, 可以挺身維護自己既利益, 有乜問題?
加拿大政府夠吉士, 亦可以反過來唔承認中國大學既學歷, 公平得很.

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 09:24

....Given his influence in Alberta, I am sure Harper can call this off just with a phone call . But he appears to be very firm. On the surface. A lot of underground economy/ fund come from China and Canada , unlike the US , still accepts business and student immigrants which is welcome news for 貪官. Basically underground money changer in Shenchum and Canton can turn any RMB into foreign currencies in HK.
Also the property market of both Toronto and Vancouver have been rising despite that we are having 10% of unemployment. Such property rise does not happen in San Francesco, NY or LA where there is no commercial and student immigrants. 貪官 love Canada loose money and immigration policy.

cboy - 2010年02月10日 09:26

別人做了壞事,是你跟着做的理由嗎?
不能因為狗咬了人,就鼓勵人咬狗。

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 09:29

...As Canadian, I would say Chinese underground fund is a major boost to Canadian economy.
As Chinese I feel sad that 中共摩登皇朝貪官 are siphoning off fund earned by migrant workers. Anyway the huge outflow of fund actually soften the need for RMB revaluation.

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 09:34

....Chinese undergrad qualification has never been accepted in Canada anyway. [tigeri ....加拿大政府夠吉士, 亦可以反過來唔承認中國大學既學歷]

深挖洞 - 2010年02月10日 09:38

說脆弱是阿Q的。我也常一掌拍死蚊,我不脆弱,只是討厭牠滋擾。

PBrega - 2010年02月10日 09:38

Calgary is a very tough city in Canada. The winter is always 20C below. I have been there for many years. It is a cowboy town and a petroleum town, because Alberta is full of tar sand. And not very far away, there is a beautiful Banff National Park. In summer, Alberta is very lovely though. Canadian is somehow a little different from USA, they are tough and independent. Most of them are the outcast from the other places. They hate the manipulation from other people or country, including USA. I think China better not to try intimidation on them. It will definitely backfire.

cboy - 2010年02月10日 09:58

Daniel: "As Canadian, I would say Chinese underground fund is a major boost to Canadian economy." 加拿大的主要經濟動力,不是因為中國的地下資金,這大概是你的推想。

cboy - 2010年02月10日 10:05

卡加利市的資料

卡加利市的資料

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 10:12

Daniel, "Chinese undergrad qualification has never been accepted in Canada anyway" (一笑) 我是對此瞭解不深. Anyway, 說法也沒變, 要搞小動作, 加政府也可以在不同的方面搞, 事乎它夠不夠吉士而已.
cboy, 唯護國家利益, 不讓別人支持搞分裂是甚麼壞事? 要說壞事, 美國用這個理由去侵略別人的國家, 不才是壞事嗎?

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 10:19

....I should elaborate. Canada happens to be the favorite 中共摩登皇朝貪官.
1. business immigration
2. student immigration as I said earlier
Both of these are not available in the U S. Canadian treatment of 奶枪声 is a good example.
The manufacturing basis of Toronto has been hit real hard and unemployment is rampant at 10%. Yet contrary to people belief (and U S comparison), residential sales market is on the rise for 2 years already.
Back in November I just had a huge line up of real estate agents in a downtown Toronto condo (apartment building) for several nights which was unheard of in Canada. Guess what ...all Chinese agents.
A lot of these hidden fund came from the underground economy in China 地下钱庄的洗钱网络.
貪官 knows that they need to lay low but they also need to have outlet of the fund they have made. Best way is to siphon them off to area that 中國政府 cannot touch. 搵後路隨時較腳
Canadian government is a lot more tolerant of fund of unknown source (unlike the US which is more concerned as a security measure )

Maza - 2010年02月10日 10:25

I believe this situation is also true of Australia.

岩夫 - 2010年02月10日 10:28

中共治下的大陸中國經濟崛起,財大氣粗,就盛氣凌人粗暴干涉加拿大內政,將加大學頒名譽博士學位給達賴喇嘛視為敵對中共行為而採取報復。《卡加里先鋒赧》說: 惡霸行為,說得沒錯。在國際來往上,盛氣凌人,
顯示「大紈(剜)」強勢的霸氣。在國內中共一黨獨裁,視法制、法律如無物,將劉曉波、譚作人以言(文字)定罪入獄。憲法尊嚴蕩然無存,只當遮羞布矣! 中國看似強大,實為脆弱。

cboy - 2010年02月10日 10:28

tigeri: 你說唯護國家利益好了,不用 「美國不也是一直打壓伊朗和拉登嗎?」 去解釋你的 「唯護國家利益。」

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 10:30

...tigeri....I want to say 吉士是表面的
Give you some info'
The largest Canadian immigration population come from China. And a lot of them are jumping the line by getting interview in the Canadian Commission in HK.
This is the favorite channel of 貪官 to settle their wives, mistresses or children as immigration is relatively easy to obtain

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 10:35

....Of course 地下钱庄运的钱先到

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 10:37

Daniel, 這就是形勢比人弱的問題.
當年中國簽了多少不平等條約? 南京大屠殺死了多少人? 鴉片戰爭又死了多少人? 中國忍氣吞氣了咁多年, 現在有能力對別人還以顏色, 不是甚麼壞事. 政府的工作, 當然也包括維護國土, 對抗外侮. 比起美國自導自演世界警察, 中國才只不過是在保護自己呢!

kuiper - 2010年02月10日 10:45

既然大國堀起,唔使忍氣吞聲。 如果哈佛、耶魯、MIT、劍橋、牛津等頒授學位俾大國不喜歡人士,夠咭士既話,完全唔承認全球頂級名校學位呀,笨!

亞難 - 2010年02月10日 10:48

「中國才只不過是在保護自己呢! 」,無問題和好得很。但對付同胞,它更不手軟,外國列強都嘆為觀止。

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 10:52

.........Tigeri you have mixed up a lot of events [當年中國簽了多少不平等條約? 南京大屠殺死了多少人? ...現在有能力對別人還以顏色, ]
Sending students to other Canadian Universities can hardly hit U of Calgary. Canada is benefiting big time from 貪官的地下钱庄洗钱网络.
That is not something that any Chinese should brag about (I believe that is what you are driving at). 貪官的洗钱网络 hurts China a lot more

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 11:00

kuiper, 這也是形勢的問題. 若全球十大大學全屬中國, 哈佛耶魯也是由中國大學生的學費來支撐的話, 中國確可以這樣做.
亞難, 是的, 中共很多事都不得人心. 但這件事倒是做得不錯.
Daniel, 這只是用不同的角度來切入問題而已.

守真居士 - 2010年02月10日 11:05

君子群而不黨,个黨字根本不是好東西,黨字為"堂"與"黑"合併而成,即係話有黑社會吞了你的堂前的土地,霸了你的財产, 尤其是撒了一堆米田共在上面.......各位認為对嗎?

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 11:07

那泛民各"黨"也該解散了.

Maza - 2010年02月10日 11:09

『若全球十大大學全屬中國』, 有黨委書記的大學能入十大?

深挖洞 - 2010年02月10日 11:12

要還拖,就下令內地大學頒博士給加拿大人所不喜歡的人,干預卡大甚至不認其學歷,只會授人以柄,外國人當然不會想中國過去的屈辱,只會想:中國還是發展中就這樣,將來怎麽得了?中國威脅論之有市場,是忘記鄧小平"韜光養晦"教訓,未強先驕的人有份做成。

cboy - 2010年02月10日 11:16

中共很多事都不得人心. 這件事也不例外。

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 11:23

其實中國怎樣還拖, 會有分別嗎? 只要中國做出任何"與以往不同的東西", 西方媒體便會再吹一次中國威脅論. 為了不給別人口實而繼續韜光養晦, 總也會有一個限度. 例如: 難度為了這個原因就永遠不建航母嗎? 如沒有特別的事故發生, 往後五十年是中國的天下是誰也瞭解, 也沒法阻止的趨勢. 就算要繼續養晦, 也養不了多久. 應出手時就出手, 中國只是在劃下自己的底線, 過不過份就事乎不同國家的人從那個角度去想了.

old cat - 2010年02月10日 11:23

居士,最介欣賞呢句'君子群而不黨',猶其在 網絡世界

亞難 - 2010年02月10日 11:26

一黨獨大的經濟內,容易做成「死便放、放便亂、亂便收、收便死」這種「內耗」循環,理由是利益聚中在一小撮人手上,經濟政策便隨他們喜好而波動(開車時看得太近,車都搖擺得密些)。在政治上便「見有所成,忘乎所以」,飄飄然便覺得所有成就,是自我能力和文化優越的結果,真的嗎?(大清國早期,也可令外國使節行三跪九叩之禮,結果又如何呢!)中華的政經文明便是活在這類的循環中,不少人間悲劇連年發生,難道獨裁統治真的值得留戀嗎?

深挖洞 - 2010年02月10日 11:33

母艦要建,但用得著這樣封殺達賴?他可說是由這種不共戴天的方針捧紅的,如果這是劃底線,又要拿奧巴馬和美國怎麼辦?tigeri兄有何高見?

Maza - 2010年02月10日 11:34

往後五十年是中國的天下? 這真是狗噏,只有狗才能噏得出!

深挖洞 - 2010年02月10日 11:43

狗才噏不出。往後50年,不同於50年後的2060年,而是2010年至2060年,2011年便知tigeri兄預測準不準了。

WF48 - 2010年02月10日 11:57

張立 said before, Dalai or Taiwan are just game played by developed countries to create internal instability in China, which is too big to fail/destroy from outside. Tibet on the backyard, you don't want it to be on fire. Taiwan is one strategic place, either to block or to free China.

深挖洞 - 2010年02月10日 12:13

WF84: Can't agree more. But the correct counter-measure is not playing bad guy in their arena. Helping others to demonise ourselves won't get us anywhere.

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 12:13

亞難, 重點不是值不值得留戀, 是你要怎麼選擇. 還是那個問題, 推倒重來有甚麼可能性的後果會發生? 若不是最好那個而是最差那個, 中國會變成怎樣? 中國人要怎樣生活下去? 而且, 推了便是推了, 便不能返轉頭, 到時出了問題, 你站出來問自己的責也沒有用. 烏克蘭發動了橙色革命, 人民也不見得生活會好些, 現在還是要捧回親俄的人做總統.
深挖洞, 達賴其實很可憐, 他只是大國之間博奕的棋子. 只不過, 棋子還棋子, 底線還是要說清楚的, 就是任何代價! 若不是這樣, 台灣和西藏等早就獨立了. 沒有土地和人民, 國家就沒有力量. 中國和印度就是因為市場大, 才有機會崛起. 好像冰島等小國, 只有俾人恰的份兒.
美國和奧巴馬? 也只是時間的問題. 經濟上今日新聞都有人話2020會被中國超越, 中國的市場和人民年齡分佈, 本身就是最大的價勢. 國債雖是兩面刃, 但對中國的傷害只會越來越少, 反而對美國會越來越大. 有朝一日, 當中國不介意大手拋售美債帶來的傷害, 便是美元崩潰之時. 美國到時能做的, 便只有以武力開戰. 這才是中國難以招架之事.

cboy - 2010年02月10日 12:27

tigeri,你不是一個好的中國政府代言人。

深挖洞 - 2010年02月10日 12:31

tigeri兄,對啊!能忍美國於一時,為何就不放過一間大學呢?不是要爭取不向达賴頒學位,要爭取的卡大向領導人頒學位。

SIMPY - 2010年02月10日 12:32

什麼[形勢論], 說到底就是[老子有錢有有槍大L哂], 什麼[屈辱論], 只係睇八國聯軍BT時又飲咗三鹿奶上頭後的唸口咒....

真正為老共強硬路線辯解而仍立得住腳的, 只餘[以強權換取改革時空,短期鎮壓力求長期久安]這種親政府論述. 到底是一廂情願的鄉愿之想, 還是虎豹豺狼的暴政之謊? 五十年足夠給與歷史一個答案.

hw1chan - 2010年02月10日 12:35

That history will be repeating itself is unavoidable. China communist will be in trouble on the horizon sooner or later.

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 12:53

cboy, 我期望, 有一天, 你會是一個好的民主代言人.
深挖洞, 你要說忍, 為何又不問為甚麼卡大又不能"忍住"不發學位呢? 唉, 這是雙向的問題, 沒得說的.
Simpy, 世上沒有那種想法是完美的, 你的沒有, 我的也沒有, 有的只是選擇.

亞難 - 2010年02月10日 12:54

tigeri兄,問題是中共從不自願行出面向人民的一步,如放棄什麼人民民主專政的憲法條文(中共立國之初是不敢寫進憲法裡的),把法院專業化,先放報禁。眼下連強制公開高幹及相關人士資產也做不來。跟本無誠意,一砌都要黨同意才有商量,即是靠惡。難道中國人就衹好等中共這個浪子回頭。最後中共還需和會改,但過程中要付天價。中共就像個愛滋病患者,等新藥來救,等不來衹有死(最怕是流血收場),但我等就先不要和它美言和「性交」罷,一來是發出錯誤信息,二來是對中共治下的受害者給一點體恤。

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 13:04

亞難, 要問的問題還是一樣.
你要爭取民主, 還是法制改革?
爭取過程如何能減輕中國人民的負擔和痛苦?
怎能讓最好的結果出現?
怎避免中國因此四分五裂? 被外國人扶植幾個傀儡政權來分肥? 中國人從此失去主宰自己命運的權利?
當然, 這些都是"概率", 不一定會發生, 但也不一定不會發生. 但你總不能抱著一霜情願的想法去做. 凡事都要想想後果.

亞難 - 2010年02月10日 13:36

tigeri兄的「你要爭取民主, 還是法制改革?」,難道「民主」「法制改革」是mutually exclusive嗎?「中國人民的負擔和痛苦」很大情度是中共的權迷貪污制造出來的,解鈴還需繫鈴人。如中共不想面向民眾,那有可能和平地有「最好的結果出現」呢。「怎避免中國因此四分五裂」,在管治理念上,中國早已是四分五裂(問問香港和台灣同胞)。「被外國人扶植幾個傀儡政權來分肥」,現時是中共扶植的政權已分中華民族的肥哪!「總不能抱著一霜情願的想法去做. 凡事都要想想後果」,這句很中性,對Obama講都得,you are not wrong。先不要為中共唱讚歌,這點是基本的,這個愛滋病人如何去救或死,誰有辦法說準呢,它自己還感覺良好地認為「中國雄起來哪」。

tigeri - 2010年02月10日 14:16

亞難, 這已是觀點與角度的問題. 我唯一可以說的是, 三思而後行.

eddie31 - 2010年02月10日 14:16

當行政體系和任免可以獨控於同一個組織或個人時, "法制" 就一定不會出現, 因為利益和人性使人的組織不可能自己管自己, 查自已, 罰自已, 公司法也規定有所謂非執行董事,年報也要有認可會計師副署, 道理如一, 這是很明顯的organisational behavior組織學問題, 無論叫甚麼ism都是一樣.

eddie31 - 2010年02月10日 14:18

如果你不敢百分百信任未經核數師副署的年報, 也不會接受一元領導的制度

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 14:47

美國不也是一直打壓伊朗和拉登嗎?

Are you a supporter of Al Qaeda and terrorism? Or of nuclear proliferation? Or of inhuman abuses of human rights and dignity? I can't believe you used this as an example.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 14:50

I'm sick and tired of hearing the same repetitive arguments over and over again. These arguments include:

(1) China has been bullied for one hundred years

(2) It all depends on the perspective

(3) Reality = Power politics

(4) China will split into one million parts if given any freedom or democracy

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 14:58

My responses to

(1)

(i) China has "bullied" its neighbours for THOUSANDS of years in the name of civilizing 'barbarians'. Yet, when it was being 'civilized' by Japan/West, this was morally outrageous? So China strong = moral, China weak = immoral?

(ii)

No one has bullied China for DECADES, while China continues to subject regional neighbours to undue economic and military pressure, ie Cambodia, Vietname, N. Korea, and Pakistan by either withholding commerce/trade or outright military aggression (see dispute with Philippines over islands)

(iii) Even ASSUMING China was wrongfully injured, what is wrong with Chinese people and their past grievances? Do Jews have to hate every German? Do Palestinians have to hate every Jew? Do Europeans have to hate every Mongul (Chinese)? Looking back in such a contemptuous manner does nothing constructive.

(iv) What moral grounds does China have to talk about history when most of its recent history is fabricated?!

(v) Other nations/states being evil doesn't give China being evil justification. Don't do evil, China.

Maza - 2010年02月10日 14:59

Hahahhaa.....all these are typical 5 cents theories to defend their wicked principal!!

WF48 - 2010年02月10日 15:05

Nuclear proliferation or Terrorism are definitions from US.

US has the most powerful nuclear weapons in the world but tells the others to stop proliferation.

US allows killings of Palestian people on a daily basis while calls World Trade Center terrorism.

Obviously this is double standard. The more we look into the details, the harder we differentiate who's right or wrong.

China is not perfect. There are many corrupted CCP members and govt officiers. But we can't conclude that all the 1.3 billion Chinese people are evil. China has spent 30 years on economic reform, and I hope she will take less for political reform in the future.

MSC - 2010年02月10日 15:17

各位壇友:這"不承認"新聞是否真確,有否斷章取義。就丹增嘉措本人(即達賴14世),他有下列榮譽學位:

西門菲莎大學特別榮譽學位,2004年4月20日
不列顛哥倫比亞大學榮譽法學博士學位 2004年4月19日
布蘭迪斯大學榮譽學位,1998年5月8日
艾文理大學榮譽學位,1998年5月11日
國立中山大學榮譽社會科學博士學位, 1997年3月23日
墨爾本大學榮譽法學博士學位,1992年5月5日

有沒有不承認UBC,Melbourne Uni的先例?點解針對Calgary?

我個人對此新聞是懷疑。

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:17

RE(2) "it all depends on the perspective"

(i) So the perspective of an extremist terrorist in Xinjiang or a fundamentalist in Kabul, Afghanistan is acceptable? The perspective of KKK who want to kill all the Chinese is ok? The perspective of a murderer is amoral? Perspectives matter and perspectives can be moral or immoral. Why is it that all Communist defenders have a problem with morality and/or moral relativity? Are they all immoral?

(2) There is something, for those uneducated uninformed people here, called a multilateral world, comprising of international institutions like the United Nations. There is also something called acting in your own interest without being at the expense of others. If military expansion is so fundamental to a great power status, then give me 10 reasons why Japan shouldn't enter into an arms race with China? If national interest was so important (devoid of morality), why didn't the US nuke the Soviets and CCP in 1950 when they had the chance?

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:20

WF48: are you stupid or just lying?

http://www.un.org/Depts/dda/WMD/treaty/

China is a signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, which defines what is nuclear non proliferation. That means China either AGREED to the definition or CO-CREATED the definition.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:21

So if the US can kill Pakistanis, we can too? If your neighbour is a murderer, you can murder too? Give me a non-relative, 'the other side is shit' argument please.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:23

Oh do I need to mention that dozens of congressional meetings are held every month on the Senate Foreign Relations Com and the House Com regarding those non-intentional casualties. If US wants to kill Pakistanis, they should just nuke the goddamn hell-hole.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:26

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/04/world/asia/04drones.html

read the news please. The US government actually structures a military strategy on limiting civilian casualties. I cannot say the same of Chinese military strategy becuase we used to send our own kids to slaughter house in N Korea

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:28

And you know what, I don't have any illusions about the recklessness of US strategy in Iraq and or Afghan. I think Bush did the world a lot more evil and harm than good. Yet that doesn't justify any Chinese wrongdoings. I have no intention of belonging to an inferior race that knows only how to copy others, including their less admirable characteristics.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:31

No one said all Chinese people are evil. I am Chinese myself. I am quoting Kant, Rawls et al on this when I say that an evil, unjust political&economic system brings out the worst characteristics of a people. Talking about morality is bad in China. Religion is taboo. Human dignity is not recognized. How can a country that doesn't believe in the intrinsic moral worthiness (non-religious wise) be a force of good for the world?

Maza - 2010年02月10日 15:31

And there are many other atrocities committed by CCP elsewhere e.g. supporting the tyrannical govt. in Burma.

MSC - 2010年02月10日 15:37

在網上只查到:
"《环球时报》记者5日从中国教育留学服务中心相关人士处获悉,中国教育部从未针对某一学校取消过“学历认证资格”。该人士表示让记者可以留意,官网上没有发布过“任何针对某一学校取消认证资格的消息”,教育部留学服务中心是针对留学生个体进行认证服务的部门,留学生学习经历真实有效、各项程序齐全即可办理有关认证服务。但该人士强调其不代表官方观点。

  《环球时报》记者8日登陆中国教育部涉外监管信息网,在“推荐高校”一栏,发现的确没有卡尔加里大学。记者随后再次联系教育部,有关人员表示,稍后会作出正式答复。)

不承認和不推荐是兩回事。

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:41

That leads to my response re: (3) Power politics

There is a difference between safeguarding national interests versus aggressive imperial expansionism. Recent trends show that China's pursuit of national strategy is not entirely benign. It systematically exploits the political deficiencies of African nations and stonewalls reforms meaningful reform in regional partners, ie Burman and Pakistan. This isn't realpolitik - this is mercantilism and economic imperialism. This is no different from the colonlialists of the 19th century. So when will we start talking about the yellow man's burden?

The world, surprisingly, is complex. Yet CCP's calculations are wholly internal. Their primary concern is to hold on to power, not preservation of peace. They will start wars (they have, on many occasions the past century) in order to stifly domestic opposition. They will stir up nationalistic feelings to bump up their support. How is this power politics in the peaceful sense?

For 8 years, the US has pursued a reckless national strategy like China has. It has been unilateral, destructive and disregarding of all international laws and conventions. Yet, the regime there has changed and CAN change. They elected a president that is no apologist for US supremacy (btw Jiang Zemin& Deng supported US supremacy for 25 years) yet does not try play God.

Finally power politics accommodates evil regimes like N Korea and Iran, who kill and terrorize their own people, spread nuclear weapons and export terrorism. If you weren't "Chinese" in the CCP sense, but just a human being, would you think all that is OK?

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:50

(4) Splitting up/Foreign intervention/Subversive Bases

My only response to this is: WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?!

MARTIANS WILL CONQUER CHINA WHEN DEMOCRACY COMES! THE AVATAR NAVIS WILL SLAY ALL THE CHINESE! THE HANJIAN WILL OPEN OUR CASTLES AND WELCOME OUR INVADERS! THE US -- THE EVIL US -- WILL BRING DALAI TO RULE OVER CHINA & THE FALUN GONG TOO!

OK. Let's come back to reality, please? How exactly has the US fractured domestic stability in China when none apparently exists, such that the Chinese still must be 'controlled'? What has the US done that wasn't DEMANDED by dissidents/Taiwanese/Tibetans/HKers prior? How is it that the US government is ALWAYS lambasted for being WEAK against China?

China, on the other hand, exports spies and student subverts to the US through its absurd Chinese Student and Scholars Association, funded by the Chinese embassy, to spy and steal state secrets. It heavily lobbies individual US Congressman to commit treason by compromising US national interests. Talk about 'the other perspective'.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:54

And if China is so weak and fragile, maybe it isn't a great power? Maybe it shouldn't have an outward looking military? Maybe it should keep its investments in China building roads, hospitals and schools instead of buying worthless shares in Blackstone and Morgan because it's the "有面子" thing to do?

Maybe if it didn't invade Tibet in 1949, then Tibetans wouldn't be so pissed off? Maybe if it didn't bulldoze Muslim temples and prevent them from going to Mecca, they would not be terrorists? Maybe if it didn't have 1000 missile warheads pointed at 20million Taiwanese, they might actually want to reunify? Maybe if it stopped sending cronies and triads to Hong Kong and actually gave us some autonomy as it promised in the Sino-British Declaration, we would actually TRUST the CCP?

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 15:58

Maza,

I understand your point about the 5 cent Gang. But some people here / in Hong Kong conservative circles aren't 5 cents. They really believe this crap and the propaganda of CCTV. I really do'nt understand. Yet they would never live in China. They would never die for their country. Is it an education deficit? Or just brainwashed? What is the attractiveness of a all powerful government that has the right to steal your daughter/wife and send your sons to die in combat and rob, at any time, your rights of property and freedom?

I don't know.

WF48 - 2010年02月10日 16:05

Mazda,

I can't tell if I am stupid. Let others to judge. My advices to you (1) don't get so emotional. (2) this is a forum, not your own blog.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 16:09

So your fragile feelings are injured. If you can write a well reasoned 10000 word response, I'll read it.

What is that crap about forum blog? You don't write the rules here.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 16:10

Obviously, that would be hard. Because CCP Talking Points in English is hilarious. THe only person who can pull that off without any shame is Lau Nai Keung, someone you admire, I suppose.

Maza - 2010年02月10日 16:19

Mazda, it's sometime hard to tell who're the 5 cents gang and who're the genuine stupid HKgers, who are easily lured into believing what CCP wants them to believe. One thing is sure, though - CCP is very good at this propagandist game and indoctrination, particularly by agitating patriotism for winning over support. It really works, esp. for the older generation, who may probably suffer in the old days when China was encroached upon by foreign powers. Just look at the Victoria Uncle on the Sunday Forum in Victoria Park!

I also believe CCP has been spending extravagantly in bolstering up its image overseas, so that a lot of foreign countries really believe CCP/China is rising and strong now.

And one thing appears true to me - WF48 is not one of the five cent gangsters, but he genuinely believes what he's saying, though his theories are those repeatedly used by CCP to rebut accusations from the US.

Mazda - 2010年02月10日 16:33

Sigh. What you say is depressing yet those are the facts.

I cannot understand why it's so difficult for China/CHinese to be respected like Japan/Japanese are or at least treated normal as India/Indians. I don't beleive we have an inferior culture to India's thousand year caste system or the backwardness of pre-Meiji Japan and blatant sexism there now. Yet we continue behaving like stupid fools, or plain barbarious. How can we be respected, if we don't even respect our own people's dignity and rights?

What's our original sin?

G

GMD - 2010年02月10日 16:36

Maza/Mazda hing, take it easy lah. It's like playing piano to the cow when it comes to challenging ones' belief in CCP. Many youngsters are like that, including myself when I was a teenager. Haven't you heard the saying that "先愛國不如后愛國,後愛國不如不愛國"? Today's "忽然愛國" must have their reasons in 埋沒良心. BTW, those Victoria Uncles are not reprsentative of the mass, as there are even more Victoria Uncles who hate CCP to the guts, especially those "先愛國" ones who returned to China during the 50's.

WF48 - 2010年02月10日 16:38

Maza, you are right that I don't belong to any groups nor school of thinkings. Neither CCP nor US are saints, and they never tell you the whole truth.

I am not sure if my opinions (not theories) are the same as those used by CCP. But let's focus on those opinions and ask "do they make sense or not ?", instead of "who" used those arguments.

yw1028 - 2010年02月10日 16:55

Hello PBrega,
2010冬季奧運會後天開幕, 連鎖書店Chapters貼出巨型紅白標語 : THE WORLD NEEDS MORE CANADA !

Maza - 2010年02月10日 17:10

The original sin for the Chinese? Just to share my humble views here. We haven't so far built a system and institution for our society, and I am talking about Mainland China. No matter how rich it is or how strong it appears to be, everything can perish abruptly (and the numerous dynastic cycles in chinese history are more than sufficient to prove this). People call this the 5th Modernisation - political modernisation. And only have we put this in place are we entitled to call ourselves a civilisation.

And the major obstacle to this modernisation is the CCP. This is no exaggeration. Why? This is obvious - they don't want to share their power, which means sharing economic benefits, even though they know very well that this can't last long and may well result in tragedy to the whole country and the race. And I don't buy the theory that China is so big and Chinese people are so ignorant that they don't deserve democracy and the 5th modernisation. This is just a blatant lie to delay and defer. What about India? A huge portion of the population is illiterate there. Taiwan is just an example of a Chinese society implementing democracy. And for HK, had it not been for the CCP, it would have enjoyed a high degree of democracy by now.

But we are all so weak to do anything with this reactionary force standing in the way of China's 5th modernisation, even though a lot of us perceive that the longer we delay the greater will be the chance for China heading toward a catastrophe, notwithstanding all the beaufiful pictures drawn by the state propagandist machinery about our future. Worst still, there are a lot of voices and accusations, some of which may be created by CCP's propaganda, that we have to move gradually or that any drastic reform will only disrupt the harmony, stability and cozy life which have not been enjoyed by the Chinese in the past hundred years. And this argument/ theory is so appealing to those peace/status quo lover that it becomes a huge hurdle to reform. The problem is not that we cannot delay, but that we may not have much time to delay!!

Maza - 2010年02月10日 17:13

Yes, WF48, I am sometimes bewildered whether my belief and theory are correct. However, the more u dig into the facts and the more u see, u will be able to find the truth. And with all due respects to you, I am not with you on a lot of issues e.g. the U of Calgary incident.

Maza - 2010年02月10日 17:26

GMD, we don't talk about those "忽然愛國". This group of people are speculators - they just speculate in politics to get, mostly, commercial advantages. For example, if they know that CCP is going to fall tomorrow, they will all of a sudden become staunch lovers of democracy and point their fingers at CCP. No doubt, they are ignominious. They know well what CCP is, but they cling to it for personal benefits. However, in reality, I believe the majority of CCP members belongs to this group of people.

The most problematic is the genuine believers of the status quo theory. They are hard to be convinced, but at least, they deserve some respects because they bona fide believe what they think to be the truth and virtue.

Maza - 2010年02月10日 17:42

Maybe, a couple of the top leaders in CCP (such as Wen, if he is not a hypocrite) really perceive the imminence of undertaking political reform. But they are so helpless to do this. Even the toughest iron man, Zhu, couldn't do anything during his office. They are just sunk and buried by the gigantic bureaucracy of the CCP. Unlike Daniel, I believe the majority of CCP is inspired by personal benefits (they are just like a huge syndicate with inextricably intertwined interests), with little regard to the long term well-being of China and its people. So, I do not pin much hope on democracy within the CCP. The pessimism lies on the fact that there is no force in China which can rectify the political deficiency - the dire result may be another dynastic cycle.

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 18:32

.....[Maza .... it's sometime hard to tell who're the 5 cents gang]
That is not that difficult. There are multi-5 cents gang who are more sophisticated in their approach. But their argument all points to a single sentence : 玄玄一翻, 共朝上 ,祖國上, 共朝不能倒下, 坚持一党执政

Daniel - 2010年02月10日 18:47

.......Maza....Precedent case
越南共产党 is heading that way
苏联共产党 is there and went through the democratization within 苏联共产党 first
CCP has more members (70,000,000) compared with 越南共产党 & 苏维埃

吴清心 - 2016年03月19日 01:17

不好意思,借貴壇的人氣來聲討信報論壇網管和編輯的胡作非為,打擾了請勿見怪!關於:“信報網站論壇的三宗罪”被刪帖一事,再被論壇內部網管人員

蜻蜓88
石亦云

文見亂

Sammy699

侈哆

Liberphile等人

假冒壇友(查其壇內空洞無文)

連續跟帖10多個蓄意以莫须有的:五毛、宣傳不道德或某信仰主義去誤導他人神功戲、貼文怪異、、等等言論來蓄意抹黑、惡毒攻擊本港土生土長的著名詞曲作家音樂製作人吳清心先生,意圖隱瞞其(網管、編輯)心理變態和無能真相--信報論壇不少言論主觀偏颇欠中立、網管、編輯無能和素質低下,自甘墮落,讓其他壇友一同起哄(我哋今日去邊度搵靶射?),可謂心狠手辣惡毒至極。

 

針對本港土生土長、真心的愛國愛民愛心音樂家吳清心先生的無理刪帖行為早已開始:見一貼刪一貼,諸位可以在本人論壇中發現真相。

只有登入後或登記成為會員才能發表意見

版規:

  1. 網站編輯或網站作家開題,網友可回應。回應必須貼題,請勿重覆;勿發表誹謗,人身攻擊或不雅內容。
  2. 網站編輯有權發表或不發表網友張貼的內容。(請參閱議論守則)
  3. 開題之網友可編輯其在過去7天內發表之論題,或刪除相關回應。

查閱 FAQ

信報簡介 | 服務條款 | 私隱條款 | 免責聲明 | 廣告查詢 | 信報會議中心租賃 | 加入信報 | 聯絡信報

股票及指數資料由財經智珠網有限公司提供。期貨指數資料由天滙財經有限公司提供。外滙及黃金報價由路透社提供。

本網站的內容概不構成任何投資意見,本網站內容亦並非就任何個別投資者的特定投資目標、財務狀況及個別需要而編製。投資者不應只按本網站內容進行投資。在作出任何投資決定前,投資者應考慮產品的特點、其本身的投資目標、可承受的風險程度及其他因素,並適當地尋求獨立的財務及專業意見。本網站及其資訊供應商竭力提供準確而可靠的資料,但並不保證資料絕對無誤,資料如有錯漏而令閣下蒙受損失,本公司概不負責。